Loose Threads
Investigative journalists & mystery writers Heidi and Stella unravel real-life cases in Western Pennsylvania.
Loose Threads
S1E1 - Debbie
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On August 13, 2022, 67-year-old Debra Daniel disappeared from Meadville, Pennsylvania. Four years later, there are still more questions than answers.
In the first episode of Season 1 we introduce you to Debbie— not just as a missing person, but as a daughter, sister, mother, friend, artist, animal lover, and complicated human being.
S1E1 - DEBBIE
SPEAKER_06You're listening to Loose Threads, Season 1, The Disappearance of Deborah Daniel. Episode 1 starts right now.
SPEAKER_09Before we dive in, we want to introduce ourselves and explain how we got here. I'm Heidi Dugan, and I'm Stella Rogero.
SPEAKER_06Heidi and I have known each other since seventh grade. We've been writing movie scripts together for over a decade now, and our work is finally paying off. We've got a film in active development. The movie scripts we write are murder mysteries and they're fiction.
SPEAKER_09But a few years ago, a real story caught our attention. We decided to combine Stella's journalism background with our skills as researchers and writers to dig into the unsolved case of Deborah Daniel. Deborah went missing on August 13th, 2022, in Crawford County, Pennsylvania. That's where I grew up. I moved away a long time ago, but Stella still lives there.
SPEAKER_06And I've been telling Heidi about Deborah's case since the beginning, although there wasn't much to tell. Debbie doesn't fit the image of the missing person's cases that make big news. She was 67 years old. She wasn't well-to-do or connected to someone famous. She lived in public housing and couldn't afford a vehicle. She also had mental health issues. It's been four years since she disappeared, and very little has ever been said about her. This podcast is our way of trying to change that.
SPEAKER_09You'll hear interviews with people close to the story, and we'll reveal, for the first time ever, the identity of the man Deborah got into a red sedan with on the day she disappeared. It's information we think the public needs to know. Our goal this season is to shine a light on Deborah's story and get people talking. This is episode one, Debbie. Major issues like when she was last seen, to more basic details like her age. The unfair truth is that many crime victims fall through the cracks. Our society tends to treat people who are older, low income, or who have mental or physical disabilities as less important. And that's not okay. While life goes on for everyone else, the victim's family and friends are left to wonder what happened. They're also left to wonder what they might have said or done differently the last time they interacted. There are people out there who know the truth about this case. People who hold the key to unlocking the mystery of Deborah's disappearance. Maybe we've even spoken to some of them. But there's definitely a culture of silence around this case, in law enforcement and in the public. We get that it's an act of investigation, so the police need to be careful how much they reveal. But we do question the extreme level of secrecy. Some people we've reached out to have refused to speak to us, even generally, about what they know or don't know. It felt like they were putting up a wall, trying to distance themselves from the case, to protect themselves or to protect other people. And withholding information must be a really heavy burden to bear. We're hoping that through this podcast, we can give people an opportunity to lay that burden down and set the record straight, to share what they know. Here's Stella.
SPEAKER_06The media often uses her full name, Deborah Sue Daniel. But when we talked to family and friends, they usually called her Debbie. When we first started this case seven months ago, we knew almost nothing about her. We couldn't even find her on social media. When we looked her up, the only posts were about her disappearance. We learned that Debbie was petite. She was about 5'2. She had green eyes and brown hair. And she was 67 when she disappeared. Back in 2022, Debbie wasn't working. And she lived in public housing in Meadville, Pennsylvania. She lived in a place called Holland Towers. We'll be talking more about Holland Towers in an upcoming episode. And how living there in the summer of 2022 was probably pretty stressful for Debbie. Meadville is located in the northwest corner of Pennsylvania, which we Pennsylvanians like to shorten to just PA. And while Meadville is the biggest city in Crawford County, its population is only about 12,000. The city is an hour and a half north of Pittsburgh and roughly a half hour south of Lake Erie. It's also a short drive from the Ohio border. And as soon as you leave Meadville, you're in the rolling hills of the country. The highways cut through forests and fields, and every now and then there's a small community with a few hundred people. Dirt roads go off in every direction, and it gets even more rural. We're going to follow a few of these dirt roads eventually. Roads that might hold secrets about this case. But for right now, let's get back to Meadville, where this story begins. Meadville has one of the highest concentrations of machine shops in the country. It's also home to the famous plier maker, Channelock. And it's a college town, home of the Allegheny Gators. I asked Heidi how she felt about Meadville, as someone who grew up in the area and moved away. She said that when she's home, driving through the city sometimes makes her sad. She sees pockets of revitalization, but also a lot of vacant buildings. And that's fair. Meadville does have a lot of great things happening right now, but it also has issues. One of the biggest problems facing the city is poverty. About 22% of the city's population lives below the poverty line. That's about twice the national average. To be considered below the poverty line, a single person has to make just under 13,000. A family of four is just under 26,000. Meadville also suffers from population decline as young professionals move away in search of stronger job markets. I don't actually live in Meadville, so technically I'm an outsider too. But I am here all the time to work and to hang out, and I really do love this city. When Heidi and I started our investigation, I thought about Debbie and I wondered what her experience here was like. And I think about the reaction in the community or the lack of one when she disappeared. And that makes me sad. I wish we'd all done more from the very beginning. In the earliest days of our investigation, we weren't in contact with anyone who knew Debbie. So we started in her neighborhood. Holland Towers is located at 1120 Market Street. I checked it out on an unusually warm February day. Holland Towers has seven levels. It's concrete with some brick facade work. There are trees all around and pretty street lamps. And little balconies off every apartment in the front and back. I didn't get too far on that winter day. You have to be buzzed in by someone who knows you. After that, I knocked on doors along Market Street. Most of the time, there was no answer. And the people who opened up didn't live there in 2022. Then I walked over to Veleski's supermarket, right behind Debbie's building. I showed her picture to cashiers who worked there back in 22. I also showed her photo to the manager at the McDonald's, right down the street from Holland Towers. She didn't recognize Debbie, but she took my number and said she'd ask around. Heidi and I eventually connected with Debbie's niece, Annie from Ohio. Annie runs the help us find her Facebook page for Debbie. At Annie's request, we're only using her first name. She helped us get in touch with Debbie's sister, Jill Shelfo, who lives in the Columbus, Ohio area. Pretty much all of Debbie's family lives out of state. Maybe this is part of the reason why her story just never got the attention it needed. It's hard to keep a story in the local eye when you live hours away. With help from Jill, Debbie started to come into focus for us. We wanted to learn as much about her as we could, all the way back to her childhood in Columbus. Here's Jill.
SPEAKER_02We grew up in Columbus and our parents unfortunately divorced when they're pretty young.
SPEAKER_07So would you say that growing up was it kind of rough then at times? Would that be fair to characterize it? Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_06We followed up with Jill to see if she'd be willing to talk more about what the siblings went through. But she declined, saying it was just too personal. And according to Jill, the teenage years didn't get any better for the sisters.
SPEAKER_07But did you guys pretty much stay in the Columbus area then when you were growing up for your old childhood?
SPEAKER_02You know, her brothers had left and stuff.
unknownAnd Debbie had to put up with what we had to put up with.
SPEAKER_06Jill also talked to us about another part of Debbie's story, her bipolar disorder. Debbie was diagnosed as bipolar as an adult. But Jill said there were signs in her youth.
SPEAKER_02She'd kind of she'd get a thought in her head about something, like maybe something that she thought that you did to her or something. Like uh I don't know. It it's hard to explain. But she would um she would just kind of she she had like a light switch. She would go off in a totally different direction in a you know, in just just a second. You know, and she could be really angry and it's it's kinda like I always described it as having split personalities. And she said that's you know, like kind of like schizophrenia, but she said, No, it's nothing like that. But it just it seemed like it from an observer's point of view. 'Cause she could switch her mood in just just a second, you know, the snap of a finger. She could her moods could change.
SPEAKER_05I can see when that would be really hard to have relationships.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, it it just I don't know. It's it's just hard to and I think with anything, unless you've experienced it yourself or have gone through something yourself, it is hard to understand what somebody else is going through. You know, and that's that's what made it hard. Um and that's what I regret in our relationship that I just didn't maybe even read up on it more and know more about it so I could learn how to deal with it better. Instead of just, you know, there was times when I just quit talking to her because I you know, I just couldn't I couldn't deal with it. And I I wish I hadn't done that now.
SPEAKER_06In our conversations with Jill, regret came up a lot. You see, Jill and Debbie weren't speaking when Debbie disappeared, and that weighs heavily on Jill.
SPEAKER_02I'll tell you one thing, I've learned a a whole lot since you know in in studying the Bible and stuff, and I I really know that I would have been able to handle her a lot differently, you know, had I had I been more mature in my faith. And that's you know, I center everything in my life now around that because you know, the Lord has brought me through so much in my own life and you know, it's helped me to deal with other people. I just I I want everybody to know Jesus. Because he has he has worked miracles in my life alone and uh you know, I just wish I would have been I wish I w you know, it's it's useless for me to say that because I can't change the past, but if only I would been more mature in my faith, then you know, we would have had a better relationship, I'm sure. In spite of the ups and downs.
SPEAKER_06From what we've learned, many of Debbie's relationships were complicated, and her mental health seemed to be a major factor. We wanted to know more about bipolar, so we talked to Heidi's friend, Sarah Whaley. Sarah is the executive director of overdose response for the city of Baltimore. She has a master's degree in social work and a master's in public health.
SPEAKER_08Bipolar disorder at its core is a mood disorder marked by episodes of highs and lows. The lows are usually episodes of depression, but the highs can either be classified as mania or hypomania. These are similar in presentation, both involving feelings of unusual energy, elevated, or irritability with things like needing less sleep, talking really fast, racing thoughts or impulsive behaviors. The difference between mania and hypomania is that they differ in intensity. Hypomania is a noticeable change. People around you can tell that something's different about you, but you can still function. You might feel unusually productive or really on, and it can last for a shorter period of time, a handful of days. So, how often would someone cycle through these high highs and lows when they have bipolar disorder? This is probably one of the most misunderstood parts of bipolar disorder. These are not hour-to-hour mood swings. Um, but what we're talking about is sustained episodes of that mania or hypomania lasting days to weeks, and then depressive episodes lasting weeks to months. Depressive episodes can make it hard to work, maintain relationships, or even manage daily functioning. Relationships can often bear a lot of strain, both from the unpredictability of episodes and from the toll they take on partners, friends, and family. I do think it's important to note that bipolar disorder is completely treatable with a solid treatment plan. Bipolar disorder is usually treated with medication, therapy, and consistent routines around sleep and stress. Many people with bipolar disorder live full, stable, and successful lives. It is a serious condition, but it's completely manageable.
SPEAKER_06After talking to Sarah Whaley, we had questions about Debbie's diagnosis. We've heard from family and friends that her moods changed very quickly. But Sarah talked about sustained highs and lows. Jill confirmed for us that Debbie struggled with periods of depression and never seemed to be at peace. And we know she struggled with relationships throughout her life. She was married twice. Her first husband was a man named Turi. Debbie and Turi had a son together, Jeremy. After Debbie and Turi divorced, Debbie changed a lot, according to Jill. She started dating a biker and struggled with drugs. When Jeremy was little, he went to live with his father. Debbie's relationship with her son weighed heavily on her, according to Jill.
SPEAKER_02She struggled with it all the time. She just uh, you know, they uh they had a rocky relationship, but she, you know, she loved her son, and it it just, you know, like everyone else, unfortunately, she was hard to get along with, so you know, sometimes and uh they kind of had a falling out too, but I know she dearly loved him, and she did struggle with that, you know, all of her life. That she couldn't be close to him.
SPEAKER_06We reached out to Jeremy and his wife, seeking interviews, but were unsuccessful. Our line of communication remains open to them both at any time. In the 1980s, Debbie and Jill grew close again. At that time, Debbie was living with a man just outside Houston, Texas, and convinced Jill to move down there too. We tell this next story because it seems like picking the wrong guy was a recurring problem in Debbie's life. The Texas guy was extremely jealous. One day, Debbie came home and found him sitting at the table with a gun and two bullets. He told her one was for him and one was for her. After that incident, Debbie and Jill threw everything they had in the car and headed for California. When the car broke down in San Antonio, Jill decided to stay. But Debbie found new wheels and made it to the West Coast. She loved the ocean and lived in California for years. We've got great pictures of Debbie with Jill from her Venice Beach days. Check them out on our social media. When Debbie finally left California for Pennsylvania, it was to be near a special person. Her mother, Dorothy, who lived in Meadville. Debbie's friends and family told us it was very important for Debbie to be near her mom. As we learned more about Debbie, we also needed to find out if there was a special man in her life in 2022. So we asked Jill.
SPEAKER_02To my knowledge, she wasn't dating anybody or anything. She's never hurt a lot, you know. She she always she always seemed to pick the wrong guys, you know. It just didn't the relationships didn't work out.
SPEAKER_07Do you have any idea what her last boyfriend was?
SPEAKER_02The last one to my knowledge was I I can't remember his name, but he had a motorcycle. She was at the motorcycle. She actually didn't put one herself.
SPEAKER_07Oh, really?
SPEAKER_02Oh, California. She had a red bike. But to my knowledge, that was the last guy that she dated, and that didn't work out.
SPEAKER_05Wow, riding a motorcycle, that's that's um pretty unique.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I did two actually. Okay.
SPEAKER_07Adventurous adventurous sisters.
SPEAKER_02We both always didn't have a love for motorcycles and that that type of crowd.
SPEAKER_06As we mentioned earlier, Debbie struggled with drugs for a period of time in her younger days. And we wanted to follow up with Jill about this.
SPEAKER_02She quit doing drugs uh many years ago.
SPEAKER_05And when we say many years ago, are we talking like a couple decades ago?
SPEAKER_02Uh Uh, yeah, probably, yeah. Um, I I'm trying to remember uh 'cause she lived she moved back with up there with our mom. Um I don't even remember what year she moved back up there, but as far as I know, she she had gotten off all that stuff when she moved from California. Whatever year that was. I'm sorry, I can't I can't quote you. No, that's okay.
SPEAKER_06In the next audio, Jill references physical pain Debbie had at times. We should also mention that Debbie had a knee replacement a few years before she disappeared, and she also had emphysema. You'll also hear the name Tammy in this clip. Jill is talking about Tammy April, who was a close friend of Debbie's. You'll hear from Tammy soon. You'll also hear the name Eric. He was Debbie's fiance a few years before she disappeared.
SPEAKER_02She tried to, you know, she liked to exercise and stuff when she wasn't in pain. And uh yeah, she was trying to take care of herself better. She's actually a vegan.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's what Tammy was telling us that she'd been a vegan for quite a while. Yeah, that's not easy to do. That's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_02I admire anybody that can do it. That's not just as simple as being a vegetarian. That's really, you know, it takes a lot of lot to be a vegan.
SPEAKER_05It does. It really does. It is an enormous amount of work, yeah. So let's just kind of talk about talk about Debbie some more. And I also um I know you're a woman of faith, and so feel free if you want to talk about how about how your faith has kind of um been there for you in these last couple of years, please feel free to do so.
SPEAKER_02So you know, it absolutely has, because I've lost you know, I've lost my I've lost all of my immediate family in the last couple of years, plus my husband be eight years ago in November. So my faith in God has got me through all that. But I don't want to talk about me. It's uh um it's just you know, I look back on, you know, Debbie when she was trying to get, you know, back good with the Lord and stuff, and you know, we would call and or she would call and talk we'd talk about it and stuff, and she wanted to like do like Bible studies with me and stuff over the phone. The only thing was she was she was like I think maybe converting into Judaism with Eric and she believed in a lot some different things than I did. She kind of wanted to go by the old testament, and you know, we're not under all those laws anymore, but she kind of kept faithful to it. I don't know if that was because you know, that's the what Eric was doing, her, you know, her it was her fiance at one point. Um, but we disagreed on some things about that, but we did talk about, you know, God a lot and stuff when we did talk and stuff, and that's that's another regret I have because you know, it was it was my lack of understanding. You know, I was new to Christianity that then, and you know, that's kind of what brought about our you know, kind of uh disagreement or you know, how how things ended between us because I wasn't as understanding as I should have been. And it was a stupid thing. It was basically over money the reason that we had our fallen out, and that's that should never happen. I know I I talked about her love of animals. I mean, she was she was like an activist, you know, she didn't want to see any any animals abused at all. That kind of goes back to her her vegan beliefs and stuff, and um uh she loved pit bulls. And uh she just loved animals and she just she didn't want to see any of anything hurt, you know. She didn't want people to to eat them or you know how that goes with with being a vegan and stuff, but she just she was kind of extreme at times, but you know, I think that's a good thing, you know, that she had that much love for animals because you know, I I just think that's a good thing. Um I don't know if I mentioned um her her artwork. Yeah, she um she was really good too at drawing and painting. She liked to paint, she loved to do all that stuff, and she was extremely talented. The Lord really blessed her with that talent. She she'd make her own birthday cards and stuff like that and send them to you know the family and stuff, and she was just really good at that, and she enjoyed doing it.
SPEAKER_05Oh, that's really neat. Did you ever receive any of these homemade cards?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes, I did. I have. And I've got them in with all my keepsakes.
SPEAKER_05Oh, good. That's good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she was real good at that, you know, painting and everything. She liked to also, you know, like mess around with I think it's called calligraphy, where you do real fancy writing. Is that what's the case? Yep, calligraphy, you got it. She was real good at that. Um, it when she'd send me something in the mail, all I would have to do is see how the writing was, and I'd say, Well, I got something from Debbie. Beautiful handwriting, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, oh, that's neat. That's really that's that's a skill of calligraphy. That is an art form.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what I said. She was she was really talented.
SPEAKER_05Do you know if she did she take classes or was she self-taught?
SPEAKER_02No, she just that kind of ran in our family. Both my brothers were real artistic. I kind of missed out on that.
SPEAKER_06We should probably back up a bit to talk about Debbie and animals. Like we said before, Debbie's relationships were complicated, and this may have applied to her time as the owner of an adopted pit bull. While she loved pit bulls, several people told us she ended up parting with her dog. We've heard several explanations as to why, and we don't know which one is accurate. And we aren't telling you any of these things to cast Debbie in a negative light. Everyone is complex and full of contradictions. That's what it means to be human. But unfortunately, part of the injustice of being a crime victim is that your life undergoes an examination you never asked for. And while we know Debbie had her struggles, we also wanted to know what she was like on her best days.
SPEAKER_02She was she was fun to be around when she was at her best. I specifically remember the last time that her and I and my our mom went up to Lake Erie. I went up to visit I went up to visit mom and I and we all three went up to Lake Erie when and we had we had a great time. I mean, just being up there by the lake and stuff, because Debbie Debbie always liked the ocean too, because she lived in California, right on um Venice Beach for a lot of years. I don't know exactly how many, but she loved the the beach and stuff and she really enjoyed herself that day. And we enjoyed her and she she was fun to be around when she was in a when she was in a good mood. And she'd laugh and she had this laugh that it was like, oh my gosh. Kind of like mine, I guess. Um but yeah, she she she enjoyed life when she was on her good days, and she was good to be around.
SPEAKER_01Did she have like a big laugh? Like, what was it about this laugh? I think you're like the second Annie talked about it too.
SPEAKER_02Real real loud. And you kind of go, wow.
SPEAKER_05Well, I'm glad that you have that memory of of being up at the beach with her. That sounds like a nice day.
SPEAKER_02It was it was a really good day, and I had my dog with me, and you know, she loved dogs, and I I got a picture hanging in my bedroom of her holding my my dog on a leash, and she was just she was laughing. It's such a really great picture. And I got hanging in my bedroom, and I get to look at it every day and just think about how great that day was that we spent together with our mom and uh gosh.
SPEAKER_05Do you um do you say a prayer for Debbie every day?
SPEAKER_02Every day. Every day I pray, ever since she's been gone, that they'll find her every single day. You know, there were so many um people had so many so many ideas of what happened to her when she first disappeared and stuff, but I knew that they were all wrong about, you know, like saying that she took off with somebody, or you know, I I knew that that that she didn't do that. And I always felt in my heart that something bad had happened to her. And uh I just I just pray every day that they'll find her.
SPEAKER_06Jill shared that photo of Debbie on Lake Erie, and you'll find it on our socials. Take a look. It's a wonderful picture. We wanted to share a conversation that we had with Debbie's niece, Annie, that really stuck with us.
SPEAKER_11Like a lot of people with um bipolar disorder um or any any mental health issue, they're just woefully misunderstood. And unfortunately, it made it hard for people to relate to her, made it like difficult for people to have patience with her. Um, and she noticed. She even told me the the last time I saw her in person, she was just thanking me for being kind to her, and really all I was doing was just using a you know, quiet tone of voice and telling her that I cared for her and I'd be praying for her, but something like that, she noticed the difference. She just I could tell like she was just kind of lonely, didn't have a whole lot of solid friends. She had some, but not very many. And she was just a really sweet person, honestly. At least my interactions with her, she was sweet. And um, I know that her disorder really interrupted a lot of relationships for her, so it was just difficult.
SPEAKER_06Okay, now let's time hop back to 2022 and what life was like for Debbie then. She was living in Holland Towers and she was having a lot of trouble there. We'll talk more about that in the next episode. Back in 2022, Debbie couldn't afford a car, so she walked or hitched drives everywhere. Her main destination was Edinburgh Manor, a nursing home at Edinburgh, PA. Her mother, Dorothy, had recently moved there. Edinburgh is 19 miles from Meadville, and Debbie visited Dot as she was known almost daily. That's a long way for anyone, let alone a 67-year-old with emphysema. But Debbie was determined to see her mom. We've learned that Debbie was very protective of Dot. She'd get worked up if she perceived an issue with Dot's care, and we heard over and over that Debbie would have never abandoned her mother. In the summer of 2022, Debbie was in almost constant contact with her good friend, Tammy April, who lived out of state. Here's Tammy talking about how she got to know Debbie and how she first realized something was wrong. And the police department Tammy refers to is the Meadville Police Department.
SPEAKER_10We met on a social media, um, because she keeps Torah, and I started keeping Torah. This was back in 2010. And we met on a social media. It was a place that Torah keepers can, you know, learn more about Torah and you know and just get to know each other and how we how they do the feast days and everything like that.
SPEAKER_01It's it's kind of amazing the relationships you can form online these days.
SPEAKER_10Yes. Debbie had met um her boyfriend at the time, and she met him on the same platform and they started uh dating and living together. Um and it was nice for a while, and then they ended up breaking up and she went and got a place and um you know I talked to her almost every day. Um I was the one that called the police. She didn't call me um on Shabbat. I think it was uh Shabbat is Friday night, the Saturday night, and she didn't call me on Saturday, and that's weird because she always calls me two or three times a day, you know. And that day she didn't call me. So I didn't think nothing of it then, but then the next day I called her, there was no answer. Well, by this time I called the police department out there. Um I said, can you please go do a wellness check you know on this on Debbie? And I don't know what they did, but they had somebody do it, you know. I guess that runs the apartment building.
SPEAKER_06Holland Towers is the name of her apartment building. Do you remember who you dealt with at Holland Towers by any chance?
SPEAKER_10Um, yes. Her name was Tammy Tammy something.
SPEAKER_01Was it top Tommy Joe?
SPEAKER_10Yes.
SPEAKER_01Tommy Joe Davenport. Okay, okay. So did you ever actually talk to Tommy Joe on the phone?
SPEAKER_10Um no. Okay. No, I didn't talk to her. Okay. But that's who I think the police sent in there to check because they didn't go. Okay. Which they should have.
SPEAKER_01Do you know with so with Tommy Joe, did she just go and like knock on the door? Do you have any idea?
SPEAKER_10Um, I guess she just went in and I guess she might have called the cops back and said the place was a mess, and I know Debbie is very clean, you know, uh nothing out of order. And the cop told me it's on recording too, but he told me that he didn't even call me back. He was supposed to. I called him back. Um and he said that the place was just a mess. Well, when her sister went there, it wasn't a mess. So nobody actually went in there. That's what I'm thinking.
SPEAKER_01Um, did you say you have a recording of the officer?
SPEAKER_10Uh no, no, they do, but at the police department.
SPEAKER_06Okay, I see. So yeah, you you said that you and Debbie pretty much were in contact daily, multi multiple times even a day. Yeah. Okay. Um so then I know that you were you were trying to get a hold of Jill and and I know Jill was not really checking her voicemails and um and all that, but you're the you're the one who started calling and and trying to get in contact with Jill, correct?
SPEAKER_10Uh yes, I was calling everybody. I called her ex-boyfriend, you know. I haven't talked to him in years saying he was shot. Um and I mean there's so much to this story, you know what I'm saying? Like I call the police all the time, you know, and they were like, you know, don't call no more. Or you know what I mean? It was just rude, you know what I'm saying? I'm I mean, I think the it it's critical the first 72 hours to find somebody. And um I didn't think it was gonna all end up like this.
SPEAKER_06As you just heard, uh, Tammy wasn't happy with the police. Hidi and I really need to talk to Meanville Police. We have so many questions about the early days of the investigation. We need to ask if an officer performed the wellness check on Debbie, or was it really just someone from Holland Towers? And we need to ask about the state of Debbie's apartment. Was it a mess? Or was it clean? That feels important. But first, let's return to that weekend in August 2022 when Tammy couldn't get a hold of Debbie. A few years before, Debbie had given Tammy a short list of emergency contacts. And one of them was Debbie's sister, Jill, in Ohio. Tammy started calling Jill. But Jill was actually in Pennsylvania at the time, visiting Dot at Edinburgh Manor. Jill told us she didn't get Tammy's messages until she was back in Ohio. She's old school when it comes to phones and checks her voicemails all at once when she's home. Can we put ourselves in Tammy's shoes for just a minute? How frustrating and frightening this must have been. She knew something was wrong with her friend. And it felt like she was screaming into the void.
SPEAKER_10And you know, people keep saying, like, you know, she probably left, you know, her mom was sick. No, Debbie wouldn't do this. Her mom was in a nursing home and she was gonna pass away. Okay, Debbie, this is the only thing that bothers me. Now I can see if Debbie left and didn't call nobody after her mom passed. Her mom was still here. She would have never done this.
SPEAKER_01And and when were you trying to convey this to the police?
SPEAKER_10Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How were they receiving that information?
SPEAKER_10Were they recession? They didn't want to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01Getting back to Holland Towers a little bit before we move on. Do you know there was a woman that um Deborah would often smoke and pray with outside of Holland Towers? Do you have any idea the name of that woman?
SPEAKER_10No, I don't.
SPEAKER_06We haven't been able to track down this friend. And we'd like to talk to her. If she's listening, we hope she reaches out. Now getting back to Tammy and her frustration with Meadville police.
SPEAKER_10I was always calling them. They never once called me. I can't even stand them. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was so furious. I will never call there again. I called there every day, probably for four months. And one of the police told me, um don't call us no more, we'll call you. Very rude, you know.
SPEAKER_06Again, we really hope we can talk to city police. When Debbie's sister Jill finally got Tammy's messages, she called the police herself. They said their policy for missing adults is that reports have to be filed in person. So Jill and Debbie's niece Annie made the three and a half hour drive to Meadville on August 24th, 2022, and officially filed the report. While Jill and Annie were in Meadville, police allowed them to briefly enter Debbie's apartment at Holland Towers. Annie said everything looked to be in order and was neat and clean. This contradicts what Tammy was told. One odd thing they noticed was that Debbie's book bag was on top of the stove. Debbie often used this book bag as a purse. Annie also said they didn't see Debbie's phone, wallet, or keys. While at Holland Towers, Annie and Jill spoke with a man named John Ketchum. Back in August 2022, John Ketchum was the Director of Housing Management for the Meadville Housing Authority. According to Annie, John Ketchum said the police would have to put in a request for the Holland Towers video feed, and he said the authority security man would scrub through the footage and find the last images of Debbie. This security camera footage becomes a big issue in our investigation. And it's one of the reasons we need to talk to city police. Joel was told the cameras went down at some point. The weekend Debbie vanished. She couldn't remember if this information came from Holland Towers or law enforcement, but she leaned more toward law enforcement.
SPEAKER_02So I don't know. There's just too many, too many weird things that happened at that time.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Did they um did they ever say why the cameras went down all of a sudden? Just did did they ever that they had to have somebody come in and look at them?
SPEAKER_06Here's more about the cameras from a later interview with Jill.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so you said that it it may have taken weeks to get the footage. Do you have any idea how many weeks? Like, are we talking like two weeks or six weeks? Can you put like a rough estimate on how long the gap was to get the footage?
SPEAKER_02Um Uh it was at least two weeks. I'll just label it at that. I I know it was at least two weeks.
SPEAKER_06It was around this time that we started contacting Meadville police, but we weren't having any luck with our calls or emails. So we reached out to John Ketchum. He was promoted and now serves as the executive director of the Housing Authority. I eventually got him on the phone. There's no recording of that call, because Pennsylvania is a two-way consent state. So you can't record phone conversations without permission. But during the call, John Ketchum asked that we email our questions. So we did. I'll read John Ketchum's email response in full. He wrote, Good morning. As I stated on our phone call, we, all Housing Authority employees, are prohibited from talking to you or anyone else about people who are or were tenants here. Confidentiality laws prevent us from even identifying anyone as an existing or former tenant or even an applicant. My maintenance superintendent informed me yesterday that you have reached out to him. Please cease and desist from contacting anyone at the Housing Authority of the City of Meadville, myself included. Sincerely, John Ketchum, Executive Director. So this was one of the first roadblocks in our investigation, but of course it didn't stop us. We filed right to no forms with the authority, including a request to view Holland Tower security footage. It's been months, and we're still waiting. While Jill and Annie were in PA, they also went to Edinburgh Manor, where Jill and Debbie's mother was living. They wanted to visit Dot and talk to staff there. They were told by a female staff member, Annie thinks it was a nurse, that Debbie had been at Edinburgh Manor to visit her mom on August 15th, which was a Monday. The staff member said Debbie had her book bag with her, the same bag that Jill and Annie saw at Debbie's apartment, laying on the stove. So this led them to believe that Debbie went missing sometime either on or after August 15th. They believed she made it to Edinburgh Manor and then home again. Here's Annie.
SPEAKER_12So she uh was a nurse. I do not remember her name. The police should have that, I mean hopefully, because I had given them that information at the time. Um and um I remember vaguely what she looked like.
SPEAKER_06It was just that one who had that almost fifteen.
SPEAKER_12Um there's always problems that it's um anything that Deb would have perceived as wrong.
SPEAKER_06We want to note something here. The nurse said she saw Debbie on August 15th, 2022. That was a Monday. In the clip you just heard, Annie said it was a Friday. We think Annie just got the day of the week mixed up. So the original date police released in the media as Debbie's last known day was August 15th, 2022. This was based on the nurse's eyewitness account. But the police will eventually walk this date back, and we're going to get deep into that coming up. But for right now, we're going to present what this case looked like from the public's perspective in August of 2022. The very first article we could find about Debbie's disappearance was from August 27th, that summer, in the Meadville Tribune. It's six paragraphs long and ran with a photo of Debbie. It's a head and shoulder shot, like something that would be on an ID. She's smiling really big, and her hair is light brown with a hint of gold. We were still trying to get an understanding of Debbie's life in 2022. So we asked Tammy.
SPEAKER_10Well, Debbie was she was okay. She would just call me and see how I was doing. We would do a study here and there on the Bible, and you know, she was either going I, you know, I told her to quit hitchhiking. Um, she would hitchhike to see her mom. It was like 18 miles or whatever, or whatever, from her house. And I'm like, Debbie, it's not like in the 70s where you can hitchhike people pick you up. Nowadays, they're not out for you. You know what I mean? You know, they're you don't hitchhike no more, period. Yeah, because it's not gonna be good. Yeah, sure. Um, and she kind of got mad at me about that. Well, how am I supposed to get there? Oh, but I do love Debbie, she she is good people, yeah. There was no reason for this to happen, you know. So somebody either set this up for this to happen or something.
SPEAKER_06In our next episode, we're going to take you back to before Debbie disappeared and tell you a story about
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SPEAKER_06a man who entered her apartment without permission and without explanation. We'll be back in two weeks with episode two The Man with the Key.
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SPEAKER_06Thank you for listening to Loose Threads. If you have any information about Debbie's case, please contact Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Kevin Guybel at the Meadville Barracks. You can also reach out to us. Our emails are Stella at loose threadspodcast.com and Heidi at loose threadspodcast.com. This episode was researched by me, Stella Rogiro, and Heidi Dugan. It was written, hosted, and produced by both of us. All music for this episode was written and performed by Jeff Rose. Loose Threads is a production of Two Mom's Writing, LLC.